Are You On Rick Warren’s Enemies List?
Let me summarize-
Christian fundamentalism: Repent or burn in hell after you die.
Jewish fundamentalism: One thousand Gentiles are not worth a Jewish fingernail. So let’s fire up the Caterpillar and head into the West Bank; maybe we can machine gun some Palestinian kids throwing rocks!
Islamic fundamentalism: Acknowledge Mohammed or we will kill you.
Clearly different, but too much detail for Mr. Warren- it’s about deeds, not creeds, don’t you know?
Who exactly is Warren talking about? Who are liberals from California usually talking about when they condemn “fundamentalism”? Generally, anyone who believes in anything approaching historic Christianity. “Fundamentalism” itself was simply an effort to restore the fundamentals of the faith from mealy-mouthed ecunemism enthusiasts like Warren.
Something smells funny about this guy- anybody who thinks a Powerpoint presentation with a cute acronym can solve African poverty needs his head checked, or else has a different agenda than what he claims. And I don’t think the man is stupid.
The following is said in a humorous tongue-in-cheek tone…
[Note: I realize the site linked to above is dispensationalist in nature. I, ironically like Rick Warren, hold to an optimisitic postmillenial view, though I am only slightly this way, maybe 55/45 postmillenial/amillenial. However, if Rick Warren is the fulfillment of Christian "Dominion" over the Earth, I'm gonna have to switch over to a dispensationalist view- esp. if he starts sweet-talking us about the Scriptural mandate for letting the nice men from the government inject a microchip under our skin for our protection. Coming Soon: The Data-Driven Life: Why the Government Needs to Know Where You Are at All Times and Why It's a Sin to Resist Being Chipped by Rick Warren- complete with DVD...ahem.."simulcast"...and small group indoctrination..
"Hi, this is Pastor Rick. See this red spot on my arm? Well, that's my new little buddy, Chip. Like many of you, when Congress passed the PATRIOT ACT III with Mandatory Citizen Microchipping Program, I was apprehensive. Then I was reminded about an important truth from Scripture, in particular Page 17, Verse One from the Purpose-Driven Life: Rick, it's not about you. It shouldn't matter that I was uncomfortable with the idea of an RFID-GPS microchip in my forearm. It's about our security. It's about obeying the legitimate authority of the government over a New Testament Christian. It's about deeds, not creeds.... In your small group today, I want you to have a dialog about how you feel about being chipped- are you afraid of shots? Do you have some extremist political or theological limiting beliefs that are holding you back? Let's share our feelings openly with the group. Well, I'll see you next week, when I'll discuss cool ways to use the onboard storage and bluetooth capability of the your new chip to spread the Gospel in a whole new way. Until then..."]
April 11th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
You mischaracterize Rick Warren on several counts: (1) He is a premillienialist, not “an optimistic postmillenialist,” whatever that means. (2) He doesn’t hold to Dominion theology (if you were serious about that). (3) He is not a liberal. From what I can gather from your blog, his personal statement of faith would be at least as conservative than yours.
You quote Al Mohler, apparently without quite understanding what he wrote. His post ends by asking about the definition of fundamentalism, demonstrating that he understands you can’t assume a newspaper reporter properly understood what a Christian speaker is talking about. Mohler himself has been the victim of reporters who just don’t get it. Your post assumes you know what Pastor Rick’s definition was.
There is a Christian fundamentalism that recognizes there are core doctrines that cannot be rejected without departing historical Christianity, yet still understands that salvation is by grace through faith, not of “pure” doctrine. There is another fundamentalism, pernicious in spirit, that pretends to be Christian yet is utterly lacking in the grace and love that ought to characterize followers of Jesus. That second kind of fundamentalism has much in common with the legalistic spirit of other religions and, because it masquerades as genuine Christianity, ought to concern any blood-bought follower of Jesus Christ.
April 11th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
My mistake on Warren’s eschatology- it only seemed logical to me that a project as ambitious as “ending poverty” (despite Christ’s admonitions that the poor would always be with us) would require some sort of supernatural postmillenial impetus. But if Warren thinks it can be done with just Powerpoints and giving money to Muslim imams, more power to him.
Your spin of the Mohler article is incredible. It was obviously a criticism of Warren’s eagerness to please the liberal press by lumping all “fundamentalists” together, in some sort of politically correct fantasy world where Christian legalists are our “enemies” just like militant Islam. Warren seems to claim being misquoted a lot, as this isn’t the first time he’s gotten in hot water for popping his mouth off.
I’ll try to keep in mind that I need to check with Rick Warren on his definition of words before taking him seriously- maybe he should release the Rick Warren Dictionary to help out. Because this is the definition of fundamentalism from the Random House unabridged dictionary:
His statement is still ridiculous, even accepting his definition. My wife has relatives in the Church of Christ, a denomination fairly prevalent here in Texas some of whose members believe that anyone outside of their denomination is in danger of hellfire. These particular relatives probably think that of my wife and her family, who are Southern Baptists. But last time I checked, they haven’t threatened to kill anybody over doctrinal differences.
To say people like that are equivalent to Muslim and Jewish fundamentalists is preposterous. Maybe Rick Warren should apologize for needless offense to other Christians rather than accusing others of “misinterpreting” him.
April 12th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Next thing you know he’ll be setting up drive-thru baptismals. Why wait? Jesus wants to be your buddy! We can have you saved in seconds flat! Would you like fries with that?
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Apparently you misread my statement. I didn’t equate genuine believers of any theological stripe with Islamic fundamentalists. Neither would Rick Warren. I said the group of people I am talking about _pretends_ to be Christian.
You apparently have a pretty dim view of the Church of Christ, but I know a lot of wonderful believers in that part of the Body. There is, however, a spirit that would force everyone else, regardless of conviction, to adhere to its rigid, legalistic worldview. That is the kind of fundamentalism Rick was talking about. If you think there aren’t pseudo-Christians in the world who use violence to enforce their will, you need to read more widely.
You assumed you know what Warren meant when he was talking to the reporter. That gives a reporter too much credit. Mohler knows enough to give Warren the benefit of the doubt and ask for an explanation. Some people, however, come to a discussion with their minds already made up.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I don’t have a dim view of the COC, but I can see how you might interpret it that way- I actually think it’s healthy for people to pick a theology based on their convictions and stick with it- even if that means we can’t achieve the sort of false unity and ecumenicism that Warren claims to be leading to a “Second Reformation”. It doesn’t bother me one bit if someone thinks that I am hellbound because I disagree with their theological beliefs- our civilization is healthy to the extent we are willing to put teeth behind our convictions. It’s this slimy spineless type of Christianity that is leading to a weakening of the believing remnant of our people in the West. You know, the type of Christianity that gets worked up over politically correct causes like AIDS, the vast majority of whose victims are suffering the self-inflicted consequences of their behavior, while remaining largely silent about the Abortion Holocaust in this country- even to the point of inviting a perpetrator and enabler of the Holocaust to speak in a Christian facility, when it serves the politically correct purposes of pleasing the liberal media?
As for the specifics on this issue- since you haven’t claimed that Warren was misquoted, then the quote must be accurate. A quote like that speaks for itself, and isn’t subject to a reporter’s interpretation.
You again take the position that Rick Warren can define his own word meanings when convenient for Rick Warren- so he can sound “with it” when talking to the liberal press by condemning Christian fundamentalists, and then back away from the obvious meaning of what he said when questioned. You can spin Al Mohler’s article all you want, but it was clearly disapproving.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:15 pm
The right word would be ‘misrepresented.’ Every reporter with a story like that interprets what his subject says in light of his own worldview. A secular reporter doesn’t necessarily understand the difference between the kind of fundamentalist a genuine Christian can be and the fundamentalism that would force everyone else, regardless of conviction, to adhere to its rigid, legalistic worldview. That is the kind of fundamentalism Rick was talking about.”
Some secularists want to categorize every conservative Christian as a extremist fundamentalist of the Wahabi variety. We would not accept that definition of fundamentalism when it applies to genuine believers. But that other kind of fundamentalism is a serious danger, whether it is among pretend Muslims or pretend Christians.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Please give a specific example of a significant, non-marginal “pseudo-Christian” group in the world today who endorses AND uses violence to enforce its point of view, and is within an order of magnitude of the threat of Islam and Jewish fundamentalism.
April 25th, 2007 at 6:31 am
“An order of magnitude of Islamic fundamentalism”? I never suggested that. Ever heard of the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda? Are you aware of the current activities of the various KKK klaverns in the US?
And what sort of Jewish fundamentalist terror cell is there on your “order of magnitude” of Islamism?
April 25th, 2007 at 8:47 am
I’m sorry. I’ve misread your note.
What I should have said was that Pastor Rick wasn’t talking about specific groups. He was talking about a spirit of radical fundamentalism and the threat it poses to civilized society. The mention of specific groups was my addition. All I wanted to do is point out the difference between the godly spirit of a fundamentalism that honors the Gospel truths which cannot be compromised and the extremist spirit that demands everyone else conform to its narrow legalism. I had no intention of starting an argument.
My apologies.